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The Arm Rest Bevel
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  The Arm Rest Bevel
I have been studying this design. One of the designs used spruce or cedar for the base of the bevel, then a veneer for appearance. How does one get the edges flush with binding without sanding through the veneer?

Other thoughts on bevel designs appreciated,

Thanks

Mike
Author:  Shaw [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Here is a Robbie O'brien video. I have never done one but this video gives you a pretty good idea how it's done. ..Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK_EVunKZQg
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
I've used both Spruce and Cedar. Cedar is lighter but Spruce is less prone to splitting. You don't spend a lot of time sanding the veneer. Mostly the top and side and even there it's glue squeeze out. You want to do most of your sanding before gluing the veneer on.
Author:  Kathy Matsushita [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
I'm working on doing my very first arm bevel on a guitar right now. (In fact, I just did the binding yesterday, and will be starting the actual bevel-shaping today.)
I've been following Kent Everett's DVD, which has made the process more understandable for me. Here's a link to this project: http://theamateurluthier.com/retirement ... ges/gsmini

His method uses basswood for the bevel block.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
I also followed Kent Everett's DVD.

Here is the drawing I made to describe how to trim the veneer, Actually the draweing helped me to visualize what I needed to do. The main point is you really do not sand it (other than finish sand) rather you scrape the edges leveled to the top and the side respectively. From my picture the main change I would make next time is to replace the strip I have labeled as top cutoff with binding material.

I also have a blog post here with pictures.
http://harvestmoonguitars.com/WRC-Koa%2000-3.htm
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
When sanding the veneer flush with the side there is no problem of sanding back to the substrate wood because there is a bevel of side wood (or binding wood if you continued the binding under the arm rest). The trickier part is sanding the arm rest veneer flush to the top because, as shown in John's diagram, there is no bevel of matching wood. Therefore, you have to sand EXACTLY to get it flush while not creating an ugly gap between the top edge of the arm rest and the purfling. This is very difficult to do. The way to avoid this conundrum and make your life easier is to put in a strip of wood that is the same as your arm rest along side the outside edge of the purfling along the length where the arm rest will be. This will give you a little margin when sanding the veneer flush with the top and likely end up looking a whole lot better.

Pat
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Pat speaks words of wisdom. I find that when you are shaping the bevel, continue the bevel into the top and side purfling. You can then very carefully sand back till the purfling just comes back. That or just do it in black. Then you can just use filler for any imperfections.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
DannyV wrote:
You want to do most of your sanding before gluing the veneer on.


As Danny mentioned the top and the bindings and the purflings should be at near finish sanding levels. If you look at my diagram if you sand the top more you are walking down that wedge I labeled top cutoff. Even if it is bevel wood you will still see the joint on close examination. If you can keep the veneer right to the purfling it really looks sharp. There is no room for sanding once the veneer is level with the purfling. I learned this lesson a few times.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
You don't need extra support inside the box if the bevel is not too big. As long as the linings still have 3/32 or 1/8" or so of good gluing surface with the top all the way around it will be plenty strong. This assumes the veneer will also be very well attached to the bevel... that long grain gluing surface makes the whole system very strong indeed. The pictures show about as far as I will carve and the size of my usual bevel. I made a test mule and beat it up pretty good in a variety of ways; the top and sides cracked before there was any damage to the bevel. I've done over 100 of these without a single failure to date.

As for not sanding through the veneer... patience and surface prep :) Getting the veneer glued perfectly on the substrate is key so make sure all the surfaces are pretty close to perfect before gluing. Good luck!

Attachment:
bevel_carve.jpg

Attachment:
bevel.jpg
Author:  uvh sam [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
My advice is to make a mock up of the lower bout out of some scrap wood and practice doing the bevel before committing to your real instrument. The theory is not hard but the application can be. I have seen a lot of attempted bevels fall short of their potential.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Sam's advice is good. I did four mock-ups before I attempted an armrest on an actual guitar. I just made them on scrap 2 X 4. Doing the mock-ups let me figure out the templates I would need to guide my router, how to get the binding to bend down and stay in place and that I needed the strip of wood beside the purfling to prevent a gap when sanding the veneer flush to the top.

Pat
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Pat Hawley wrote:
When sanding the veneer flush with the side there is no problem of sanding back to the substrate wood because there is a bevel of side wood (or binding wood if you continued the binding under the arm rest). The trickier part is sanding the arm rest veneer flush to the top because, as shown in John's diagram, there is no bevel of matching wood. Therefore, you have to sand EXACTLY to get it flush while not creating an ugly gap between the top edge of the arm rest and the purfling. This is very difficult to do. The way to avoid this conundrum and make your life easier is to put in a strip of wood that is the same as your arm rest along side the outside edge of the purfling along the length where the arm rest will be. This will give you a little margin when sanding the veneer flush with the top and likely end up looking a whole lot better.

Pat

That's exactly how I've done them. It looks like I'll be doing a lot more -- everybody wants them!
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
To me, one of the trickier parts of the design was coming up with lines that seem to compliment and flow in-and-out of the bindings without obstructing the grace and symmetry of the body shape.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Very good stuff! Thanks all.

Mike
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Got to try me some Arm Rest Bevel. Beautiful work you guys.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
I think it would be easier to cut the bevel shape and then take it to the belt sander to remove the inside material of the bevel block. Then glue it in with without the outer edge angled and left squared. Leave the top and side as normal and then once glued up mark your bevel edge guide lines on the top and side and then remove the material and shape/carve the bevel.
I would suggest to start the bevel just as the curve starts at the tail and as it starts at the waist into the lower bout.(Like Ken's) If you start it too far then it will be very hard to bend the binding . A gentle slope makes is much easier to bend the binding then a steep one. (that is if you are running the binding below the bevel and purf on top) Plus it makes a nicer line to the eye(that is if you're doing a Ryan style rest). If you notice some will take the binding to the bevel and stop at each end and then just continue with purfling at the top or not. Thats because binding(wood) the bevel "IS" the hardest part to the bevel IMHO.. :)
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Chris Paulick wrote:
I think it would be easier to cut the bevel shape and then take it to the belt sander to remove the inside material of the bevel block. Then glue it in with without the outer edge angled and left squared. Leave the top and side as normal and then once glued up mark your bevel edge guide lines on the top and side and then remove the material and shape/carve the bevel.
I would suggest to start the bevel just as the curve starts at the tail and as it starts at the waist into the lower bout.(Like Ken's) If you start it too far then it will be very hard to bend the binding . A gentle slope makes is much easier to bend the binding then a steep one. (that is if you are running the binding below the bevel and purf on top) Plus it makes a nicer line to the eye(that is if you're doing a Ryan style rest). If you notice some will take the binding to the bevel and stop at each end and then just continue with purfling at the top or not. Thats because binding(wood) the bevel "IS" the hardest part to the bevel IMHO.. :)


Hey Chris….I always enjoy your tuts! Do you have any pictures you could share of your process? Thanks for posting.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Just what youtubes I made of the last rest I did.
The suggestions I made are what I discovered from the last build. They are changes I will make on the next one. There isn't a lot out there or wasn't 4 years ago. Todd R and some others gave some approches and showed how they were doing them. Others were keeping it a secret for whatever reasons. You will find , if you haven't already, that whenever you do a build you will always be looking at ways to do it better and hopefully learn from the mishaps and adjust your process. But it's nice to have someone give ya a heads up .
Author:  ChuckH [ Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Arm Rest Bevel
Funny, I just got Kent Everett DVD this afternoon and watched it. He makes it look easy.... Kinda


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